Black Pilled Non-Woke Marxists

"Conservatives" supporting Andrew Tate

I was invited onto Alexandra Marshall Live to discuss illiberalism coming from the political Right.

I come in around the five minute mark.

Transcript:

Alexandra Marshall: We are joined by content creator, producer and podcaster Kate Wand. Kate, welcome to Marshall Live.

Kate Wand: Thank you so much, I'm glad to be here.

AM: Although it is less obvious in countries like Australia, in the UK, Canada and particularly in the US, there are what I would refer to as riffs forming in the conservative movement. There's a fundamentalist branch of conservatism that's been emerging following the post-COVID era that claims things like piety but then supports very strange ideas and characters. Can you describe this new conservatism for us?

KW: Well I would describe it as non-woke Marxists, and I know that that's going to be controversial because I don't think that many people who see themselves as conservatives see themselves that way, but if you actually listen to the things that they say, if you look at the way that they see the world which is largely through this kind of victim lens, like they are the oppressed and they look at things in the way that the left does, basically the oppressed versus the oppressors and they want to take back power which is very much a Marxist or a post-Marxist kind of concept coming from the offshoot of Marxism, critical theory. So I think that this is something that we're seeing in the conservative movement and I've seen it before, I've seen it kind of rising up and I've also read a lot of books about things that happened 90 years ago and you see this kind of reaction to the far left, these reactionaries, and I think that that's what they are as well. So I'm not saying that they're necessarily far right but maybe some people are, maybe there are people who have very illiberal proclivities because they don't really have these first principles ways of thinking about the world that really defends liberty. They, I think, want to take the ring of power and use it to impose their version of morality that's not woke onto the world.

“They, I think, want to take the ring of power and use it to impose their version of morality that's not woke onto the world.”

AM: It's interesting that you described them as a Marxist, well not as in their politics but the way they behave because Marxists have complete incoherency in their political ideas, they say one thing, they support movements that do something totally different. They're also destructive. If this type of conservatism is not just a temporary reaction to things like fourth wave feminism and it's a more permanent type of political movement, could it be destructive?

KW: Of course I think that it could be destructive. I think that it's already destructive. I've talked before about the black-pilled, or kind of just this nihilism, this idea that you know what there's so much that's wrong with the world, there's so much that's wrong with the status quo and so we need to tear it all down but there's not necessarily a thought as to what to replace that with or to harken back to enlightenment principles or classically liberal principles. It's more of we don't like the way that things are right now so we have to fight back, we have to get control, we have to get control over narratives as well and this way basically we're going to even out the playing field and again as I said this kind of really ties into that victim mindset, the oppressed versus the oppressors and of course I saw this really kind of come to light after October 7th. That was the time where it was like out of the woodworks. It was okay clearly there is just this big illiberalism, this anti-semitism among some people who consider themselves on the right. It's very irrational, it's very dangerous. So yeah to answer your question that all kind of ties together and that in itself is dangerous because we see that this is actually turning into violence against certain people just because of who they are because of where they come from so that's that's scary.

AM: Well as an editor of a publication I spend a lot of time online reading the feedback to articles and to commentary that goes on and you're right after October 7 I saw a separation of our conservative movement happen almost immediately where things that might have been rarely if ever discussed or mentioned suddenly came out of seemingly nowhere and people started attacking each other on the same side of politics. It was there with the Russian invasion of Ukraine but to a much lesser extent. This seems to be far worse and I just want to tag on to what you said there about black pilling. Anyone who's been online during the COVID era has heard the terms red pealed and blue pilled. They are derived from the 90s era Matrix film talking about the red pill to learn the unsettling truth about the world and to escape the Matrix of Lies. What is this black pilling, because most people would not describe themselves if they're Trumpians they're not black pilled, so what is black pilling?

KW: Yeah well I don't have a monopoly on the definition or anything but how I understand it is basically it's people that think that they're red-pilled so they think that now the truth has been kind of revealed to them. They realize they're living in the Matrix, which on its own you know maybe necessarily has some problems. You just get this kind of tunnel vision. It's like the whole world is Twitter X. The whole world is everything that you see going on in these culture wars that are mostly happening online. You know, now that's bleeding out into the real world of course, but it's just this idea that the world is so messed up and on top of that there's nothing that we can really do to change it— like we're stuck, we're hopeless and it's this kind of nihilism I think that's associated with that. This idea that well there's nothing else to do so like let's just let it all hang out. Let's just let it let's watch it crash and burn and we're just gonna fight and we're just going to be angry and we're going to kind of not really engage with reality in the same way anymore. So it's like you're no longer falsifying your own opinions or beliefs about things. You're just assuming that everything is within this certain framework and everything that happens is either a psy-op or a false flag, nothing organic. Everything is controlled; that's it essentially.

AM: I often shorten it to just be QAnon that movement that thought everything every day someone was going to be arrested there was always a big secret coming that would change the world and it never did but it was massively destructive to an otherwise good conservative movement so because if you go to Wikipedia they've got a terrible description they don't really know what's going on they sort of describe it as a fatalist and nihilistic approach often adopted by the fringe as a society like the incel movement but that is in no way a broad enough definition of who the majority are but these are political movements we're living in them so it's a living history can't go back and see what they're going to look like they're in the process of forming so they're difficult to pin down. I sort of the David Ike's of the world I put that in there as well what are your thoughts on the more extreme conservative commentators who you might call black-pilled who are operating in this space where they and their followers reject entirely the news media they reject science they're the sort of let's re-embrace or whatever flat earth theory that kind of thing how how do you perceive them?

KW: Well I think that they are in a feedback loop with each other. So they've become kind of these pop icons in a way, or these idols, and they've become elevated by their audiences and so they continue, I think, to seek that positive adulation from their audience. They go down the rabbit holes that their audience want them to go down; they're really trying to please their audience. And of course there's psychological reasons for this, there's monetary reasons associated with this, and potentially as well if we kind of harken back to what I was saying before about thinking through this victim lens, you'll notice that a lot of these commentators as well they have a kind of victim persona that they're anchored in. Like there's always something happening to them, there's always somebody ‘attacking’ them, and so people like that who see the world really in terms of only power dynamics— like power dynamics do exist of course but if that's really your lens of viewing the world through— well what's gonna happen is that you're gonna think, you're gonna really start to think, I am oppressed, even though you have all of this power and you're gonna keep seeking more power and more control more control over narratives, more control in your own life but that also spreads out into the way that other people start to view the world. These people wield an enormous influence— and I'm a free speech absolutist so I don't think that people should be cancelled for their ideas, I think they should have a right to say these things— but I do think that there is an interesting relationship that's that's developed there. And I know also as a content creator sometimes you want to please your audience, you can say okay what are they gonna want to see like what what's the next video that I should do right, but if you actually follow that path it will actually lead you down the wrong direction. You need to to make content because it's coming from a place within you, something that you need to say, something that you're following— like you can't get into that feedback loop because it just becomes very destructive.

AM: I believe you referred to it in one of your podcasts as following a path of wickedness when commentators pursue at all costs the demands of their audience. I'm sure you're aware as I am I know that I could say things on Twitter that I believe that my audience wants to hear and become more popular. I could get thousands more followers if I went down these rabbit holes but I don't because I don't believe it and I've never believed in saying things just because they're popular but other people in the movement well they certainly say whatever they need to in order to get those clicks. Would it be fair to say that mainstream media at large has also done this only they've tilted toward woke politics instead saying what they think the extreme left want to hear?

KW: I think that it's slightly different in the way that the relationship is different. I think, so, for independent media you have kind of more organic relationships you have people deciding ‘I'm gonna follow this person’ and people are seeking out the types of creators that they want to follow, whereas if you think about mainstream media, more traditional media and television you're having the same audience. It's basically going to be people who are turning on their television and the person who's there is there. So I think that in this case what's happening, and this is just my opinion, I think that here people are following certain sets of rules they probably have through their hiring processes, people who are filtered out who do not who do not believe the opinions that are more woke or more kind of far left, I think that there's kind of a weeding out process there so I don't think that they're necessarily trying to please their audience. I think that they're probably trying to please their bosses more.

AM: That's actually a really good point it's about weeding people out. You should watch how fast the door closes if you get on the wrong side of a discussion like Covid for instance. But let's get on to some of these influencers because it's really strange at this ultra Christian ultra conservative ultra Puritan side of the commentary are the same ones who have been a vocal in their support about the lowest and most destructive individuals in the media landscape now one of those is Andrew Tate. How do you rationalize this from a conservative perspective because Andrew Tate is in no way shape or form a good example of males conservatives or just humanity in general?

KW: Well I think that there are many many reasons for it, I don't think that you can really give a simple answer, and I think that there's many different kinds of hypotheses that you can build around this. Sometimes it's personal relationships, I know with certain people there are personal relationships involved where they know these people, where they know Andrew Tate and his brother and so there's some layer of loyalty that's maybe in there. I think another thing as well is, as I said, there are a lot of commentators out there who have this kind of victim mindset and they see they they're kind of like they’re cry bullies I guess is the way to put it. So they run around saying that they're victims but they go around bullying people and so if that's your kind of personality you're probably going to be friends with people like that.

“They’re cry bullies…so if that’s your kind of personality, you’re probably going to be friends with people like that.”

AM: Let's have a closer look at Andrew Tate because he's the he's the example that is cited by our governments when they start talking about online harm legislation so he's not just confined to the internet he has real world implications in our parliaments now if you ask the teenage boy about their view of Tate it's probably pretty shallow they'll say things like he supports blokey things he drives expensive cars he rides in private jets he has beautiful women everywhere it's their you know James Bond style dream here's a quick clip.

<tate clip>

Now in reality you and I know that he lives under the shadow of lawsuits for serious offenses with fresh raids being launched in Romania this week on human trafficking charges including the trafficking not only of women but also of minors and all you have to do is have a listen to him this is for those who are not familiar with what he says here's a couple of clips.

<tate clips>

Apologies to my viewers they were the cleanest clips I could find so what I don't understand is the same conservatives to tell me that my short skirt is outrageous think he's a brilliant bloke that's what people are struggling with do you have any comments about how they rationalize those sorts of clips?

KW: Well I think that, okay, people really love narcissists also— that's that's another point like if we think about psychology, people tend to like flock around people like that. If you think about a situation in your life, like I can think about a friend whose older sister was extremely abusive with her, and then when she pointed it out the whole family goes after the friend is like ‘why are you tearing apart the family’ right? People tend to side with abusers, there's just something psychological about it, and I'll say something that's probably gonna trigger some of the Christian nationalists— but why did the mob want to set Barabas free and condemn Jesus to death? Like this is a human phenomenon that goes very very deep. So I don't know exactly why, I have so many ideas about it, but there's just something there that people tend to support abusers, they tend to make excuses for abusers, they tend to not see them the way that they actually are. The Tates are extremely manipulative, but I don't think that that accounts for it, because when you hear clips like that you can look at that and you can see it very clearly. So I think that people don't want to let go of their own narratives about certain people, like oh he is a figure who is influential, it's all of the people who control the world who are coming after him, it's only because of this; everything is made up somehow, and no matter what his own words come out to say you just don't believe your own eyes you know. And this is very indicative, as well, of a society that is mired in propaganda and mired in mob thinking; they don't believe their own ears and their own eyes because they think everything is a lie anyways— that's a Hannah Arendt quote there about the origins of totalitarianism. So it's just very strange.

AM: You're I think you absolutely nailed it there at the end when you said it was about not wanting to let go of personal beliefs because we saw it during COVID where no matter what came out afterwards, no matter what court cases happened, no matter who died next to you no one was going to break through the safe and effective narrative because people had used it as an excuse to justify their own behavior and so they couldn't let go of it or they would have to look at themselves. People like Andrew Tate, my theory and I'm I've got no idea if it's true, is that they put him up there as representing masculinity as a response to feminism and so if his brand of masculinity after being praised turns out to be dreadful because I picked the wrong bloke well then they might have to rethink what they've said instead of just saying hey sorry but our bad that guy's obviously crazy we'll just pick someone who's better but the final question here as we go out tonight Kate: As the economic and social and cultural reality worsens because things certainly are getting better in the West, there's a good chance that more people are going to go looking for comfort and support with these voices on the fringes. Is there a danger this temporary rift inside conservative politics will become permanent because we've seen how bad it is for the left when you've got the far left Marxist and Greens involved.

KW: Yes I think so. I think that people tend to become very tribal around these things and I think that these rifts are just separating the conservative movement and I don't think that there's coming back from that. I think that that's going in a very dark direction and I don't really see it ending well. I don't know how it's going to end, but again you know, read the Road to Serfdom by Frederick Hayek, go back and look at history and see what happens. Frederick Hayek, he said the the fascists and the communists clash most frequently with each other but they had the most in common they both competed for the same type of mind. And I think that this is what we're seeing here, we're seeing kind of the extremes of mob that are being developed. And I think that this is actually largely due to what happened in March 2020, that whole experiment on humanity has created an enormous amount of tension among society among people among different groups and everybody is looking for an outlet and so for me I just see it as a kind of continuation of all of this this is why we see the scapegoating of the Jews this is why we see other people being elevated when they act illiberally or when they act abusively or when they do crazy things because it doesn't matter. What matters is the war, right, the culture war, this kind of war of the mind, and so people are willing to also I think take the allies that they can get. So I think things are not in a good place but I also do have faith in humanity because there's a lot of beauty in life. There are many many people as well who are starting to see that neither extreme is actually a good thing and there's kind of a third way, like coming back to more classically liberal principles and the ideas that got us to where we were before we started to tear it all down.

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Hayek

“It is true, of course, that in Germany before 1933, and in Italy before 1922, communists and Nazis or Fascists clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties. They competed for the support of the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic. But their practice showed how closely they are related. To both, the real enemy, the man with whom they had nothing in common and whom they could not hope to convince, is the liberal of the old type. While to the Nazi the communist, and to the communist the Nazi, and to both the socialist, are potential recruits who are made of the right timber, although they have listened to false prophets, they both know that there can be no compromise between them and those who really believe in individual freedom.” - Hayek, The Road to Serfdom