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Rogier van Vlissingen's avatar

Interesting. Also for me, this was helpful in terms of understanding Islam better, still, I find in Islam also some mystical traditions, e.g. the sufis, which understand the nature of God as love, and do not at all believe in violence in the way Rashid describes. In general this is similar to what happens in Christianity, for even though e.g. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, are considered saints, it is very clear that their inner experience was hard to reconcile with the church, and especially John of the Cross twisted himself into a pretzel to stay clear of the inquisition.

In Chreistiantiy, it was clear to me very early that the religiion taught more or less the opposite of what Jesus taught, and Paul and Peter c.s. turned the teachings on their ear, even if in some of his brighter moments Paul does seem to get it, but still, the overall gist of his work is completely at odds with what Jesus taught. Jesus also is quoted as saying that there is much they will not understand till later.

Also take note of this Gnostic tradition from Basilides:

The late 2nd-century Christian writer Irenaeus wrote about the teachings of a Gnostic leader of his time named Basilides, who claimed:

“He did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all,” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 24, Section 4). (https://carm.org/islam/the-quran-the-crucifixion-and-the-gnostics/)

And of course in a more modern tradition, A Course in Miracles, Jesus explains that he did not die on the cross, for that was after the resurreciton and he knew he was not his body. This conversation was frequent in early Christianity, with many groups arguing that the resurrection was at the Baptism in the River Jordan, so that the resurrection preceded the crucifixion. These traditions were later suppressed, when Christianity was forced into a mold ultimately under the Emperor Constantine with the Council of Nicea.

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Andrew Corner's avatar

I Listened to this Conversation several days back and meant to comment, but am only finding the Time now.

This is Such an Important conversation for people who Really Want to Understand the Nature of the Rift between Western society and that of the East.

I've tried in my own writings to Illuminate where this Rift has come from, and what it looks like, and Most Specifically, how the Eastern Mystical ways of thinking about Humanity have Returned, not only from the teachings of the Islamic Faith, and as Always, to be Clear, I'm criticizing the Ideology, and the more specifically the Psychology contained within, but on the other side, the 'Enlightenment', and the Failings contained within.

But Well done Kate. Your content lately is head and Shoulders above the rest in my Humble opinion.

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